Another update from my side: I asked Neuroguide if they would be willing to develop a customer-version of Neuroguide for use with freecap, but they never answered. Then I asked the company, which developed the freecap (link above) if they plan to work together with a software-developer to bring the freecap to consumer-level – they never answered. Maybe I will call them by phone someday …
Then I contacted another doc in Munich, which offers NF via hometraining. This could be interesting for you @Jay: He uses Myndlift which itself utilises Muses headband to connect a single electrode to it with which the training is done. I’ll try it out and post another update.
When I asked him why there was no company offering hometraining with a fullhead-set like freecap he told me from his opinion in gneral (so not only regarding hometraining) the approach “the more data the better” is not always the best. In his opinion the more electrodes you use in conjunction with Loreta the bigger the risk that you get a crapy signal. Because Loreta uses the signals from all electrodes to generate a 3D-model of the brain for training – so if one electrode transfers bad signal quality the general result was crap. So he’s a fan of using less electrodes – which transfer signals that are good – to train only specific brain areas. And he also told me that this opinion is often discussed with colleagues from university – so no holy grail in sight yet, I guess.
I can see the logic behind that argument but saying if we have more data points were more likely to have bad data points is unconvincing to me. The Versus has a built in feature that lets you know if any of the electrodes are not producing a sufficiently good signal (which doesn’t mean the data is perfect, i know). I’m sure that isn’t foolproof but we have to do a better job at creating good electrodes.
The problem with even the muse is simply too little data and too little of the right data. When I spoke to Justin Brewer (who is conducting some of the most extensive neurofeedback experiments in a lab, both using 128 channel EEG as well as fMRI) he said that just a few channels on the forehead simply don’t give you all that much to work with.
I don’t know if the Versus was assessed by any outside group but as far as I can tell it is an example of a more extensive EEG headset (which i can easily see an even more extensive version), with a user friendly interface, but that is too expensive and simply don’t care about the type of neurofeedback I’m looking for (they only gear their protocols for athletes for some crazy reason).
I’d go so far as to say that if OpenBCI folks cared for making consumer products and not just products for hackers, they might just be in the best position to make such a device. But i don’t think they’re interested, right @biomurph? (bummer, but if it’s not their thing, that’s ok)
I could simply not understand the complexities, but I don’t see why a device somewhere between a Brewer level device and a Muse isn’t possible. And if versus is any indication, it definitely is. I’m still optimistic but until I can fund such an effort, I’ll have to keep waiting for someone else to do so.
Then again, maybe all I need to do is convince Leslie that Versus needs to add other protocols and ditch the subscription models and they’ll suddenly get a vastly bigger market size. Not that I haven’t tried…
$840 for a single cap looks completely daunting. In part this might be because they are using the sintered electrodes. But still, appears to be a price gouge. What they seem to have done is just fit sponges into the Hungarian cap system:
Here’s my page summarizing some of the other saline based headsets:
And how you can build your own with velcro:
re: more vs less electrodes for neurofeedback.
Versus only uses 5 I believe. MANY neurofeedback protocols just use 2 or 4 channels. Assessment is another story, with 19 channels being the norm. Yes for accurate surface assessment or Loreta work you need to constantly monitor the impedance of all of your electrodes to ensure good signal quality. The apps do this for you with alerts if an electrode goes wonky.
Many more neurofeedback sessions are done using just a few channels, vs. the much more expensive Loreta style.
re: Neuroguide custom. Not sure why you need this. Neuroguide is already setup for 19 channel cap, so it should work just fine.
re: OpenBCI neurofeedback. We’ve been coaxing Larry Janow, the Bioexplorer developer to release his Cyton driver for a couple months. He has it working in house. Once this is available then Pete Van Deusen’s Brain-Trainer assessment and protocol system will be available. Pete’s protocols are mostly 2 and 4 channel. No Loreta. And has gotten excellent results for decades.
I forgot to mention the FRI dry sensor velcro headbands. The connection is somewhat more pressure sensitive than with using saline / gel / or paste – but is essentially a low cost way of using a few dry sensors in an adjustable system. These are the same dry sensors used by OpenBCI.
I cannot judge the docs opinion it was just an interesting point to me. Regarding the signal-tracking-feature: Also Neuroguide offers such a tracking system, of course, but from time to time (very seldomly though) we still have sessions where suddenly the feedback gets odd (too much positive feedback without a reason or almost no positive feedback) without the system giving you an error regarding signal quality. On the other hand the fullhead-system – as you said – gave us important information about “bad” brain activity in certain areas from time to time.
If I understood right Myndful is not even using the 4 electrodes on the forehead, just the single one they introduce by themselves.
Again I cannot judge any scientific opinions here that’s why I wanted to try it out on my own. I’ve used Myndful for about one month on a daily basis while not having Neuroguide-session for 3 months until now. But I couldn’t feel any progress regarding Myndful – in comparison to the training with Neuroguide where I can definitely say that with this system a big positive shift happened regarding my psychological problems.
I cannot tell, why Myndful didn’t cause any effect (at least no perceptible one). Maybe it was the hardware with only one electrode. Or it was the software: the “games” were pretty much overloaded with background-action while you had to fullfill some basic goals. From what I know the stimulation with neurofeedback is all about giving the brain “any” feedback, not special feedback in form of rewards. So I guess in case of Myndful the brain simply gets too much general feedback which makes it hard for the brain to distinguish between the important and not important one.
I told the doctor which rented the system to me that I was pretty disappointed and he was very surprised because usually he gets positive feedback from his clients. But he agreed with me regarding the overhelming “background-noise”. He told me that he already contacted Myndful about that and he hopes that they will change that in the future. He also told me that his medical office wants to conduct a study with 30 clients regarding the effectiveness of Myndful. So I’ll contact him in a few months to hear from his results.
I just contacted them aswell. The more people show interest, the better. Nowadays on their website they also include using VERSUS in case of mental problems: https://getversus.com/provider/mental-health-counselors/ (page seems to be broken, scroll down a little - basically the different categories all seem to have the same content anyway).
I don’t understand either but let’s hope one day there’ll be such device …
William, thx a lot for your information! But isn’t there any study comparing the 2/4 channels to 19 channels regarding effectiveness? Is nobody interested in this but me and Jay?
How can a laymen as I am keep uptodate regarding this development? Is there any kind of newsletter or so?
Yes, Pete Van Deusen has a Yahoo group that users of his protocols share tips on. 2, 4, and 5 channel protocols have been the mainstay of neurofeedback for decades. You only need more for assessment; 19 being the norm. But there are also assessments that use less, such as Mini-Q or ClinicalQ.
re: Bioexplorer for OpenBCI. I don’t know what the delay is. As we understand it, Larry has Cyton working in house. But may be delaying release until he has Ganglion working as well. Ganglion interfacing is significantly more complex since it uses compression and Bluetooth Low Energy 4.x protocol. Cyton is just a simple serial port.
I got into this thread, I know its very late, but I hope to get from you. I saw your reply and you mentioned about the neuromore software. I have already saw somewhere else, and then i tried to download this software. But, unfortunately when i open the website of neuromore and want to download the software it ask me to sign in. I don’t have any account already, so I need to first sign-up and then sign in. But i don’t see any place where I can sign up. Kindly tell me how can I sign-up and download neuromore.
Manuel’s posts were from 2015, almost 3 years ago. As far as I can determine, new accounts on neuromore have been on hold for over a year, more like two. Not sure what their plans are.
Other VPL (visual programming language) signal processing apps are available (some free), depending on your EEG amplifier equipment: BioEra, Bioexplorer, BrainBay, OpenViBE, LabView, and even several VPLs that deal with audio signal processing: Max, PureData, that can process OSC data streams.
I did see that neuromore was a sponsor at the recent BCI Monterey meeting, so they might have some BCI plans in the works.
Yeah you are right, maybe they have different plans for signing up with new account.
I am using Emotiv Epoc+ headset for my EEG data acquisition. I have also looked into OpenVibe and downloaded the software. I am designing my neurofeedback scenario in that. Somewhere on Openvibe, I saw they support Emotive hardware, thats why I choose to start with OpenVibe. Currently I am working on that, but for the time being I have one question in mind so I will ask it here.
As I have to conduct some cognitive test before starting the training, in the middle of training (after completing 50% neurofeedback training sessions) and after completing the neurofeedback training. I am planning to use another tool, PsychoPy (free VPL), for designing these cognitive tests. My question is that, can I integrate these tests in my neurofeedback module (which is designed in OpenVibe)?
The purpose of integrating these test with neurofeedback module is that, the subjects will have easy access to perform the test while sitting to the same screen.
I don’t see the issue with running multiple processes or screens or windows at the same time. You can probably export / import info from OpenViBE into files.
Is this the case now? There are several products he sells on his webseite. Or are these products he sold already?
This is what VERSUS answered:
The Versus is a general wellness product, not a medical device, so we don’t recommend Versus for any medical conditions. However, some medical professionals do decide to use Versus as an adjunct to their standard care procedures. This must be closely supervised by the recommending physician.
Any update on using Myndlift and Muse for NF? I’m interested in seeing if this could be used for working with orphans with trauma histories overseas who have internet but wouldn’t be able to have access to a practitioner and traditional NF systems. Have you continued using it? Any change in your opinion that you didn’t notice much of a change? I looked into NeurOptimal since it doesn’t require a licensed practitioner but I don’t completely understand it and it seems like it may not work as well in cases with more dysregulation. Thanks!
I hadn’t been using it anymore but asked the doc (which gave it to me) about his mini-study (with 30 adults) about it. I try to translate his response:
I wouldn’t say that all clients are “excited” about Myndlift. There are some to which it is working well (which is the majority, otherwise we wouldn’t offer it) and there are some others to whom it doesn’t work so well.
The study is running until at least the end of the year. It compares two groups which use NF alternately. But that also means that results are available not before the beginning of 2019.
Currently we also plan to compare the measurement accuracy of MUSE generally and Myndlift in particular with medical EEG-amplifiers. Also this study will run over a longer period.
I’m not an psychologist but from what I know about trauma-related therapy you definitely want to avoid re-traumatization in any case. So using remote-technology with traumatized orphans without having at least one in-depth clinical study about this might be a pretty bad idea.
Regarding the comparison of “full-head”-NF and NF with up to 2 electrodes I asked ISNR if there was any research about this subject. This is what they’ve answered:
There really are no data contrasting the two forms of NF (one or two electrodes versus full cap). We did a small poster a few years ago examining a small number of subjects However, we did 20 consecutive days sp this was probably the more profound indicator. This is a much needed area for research and hopefully we may get to it soon. I would just advise be clear about what your desired outcome is to be and work toward that end.
I’m pretty much irritated that there seems to be no extensive research about this topic – if I was a researcher regarding NF this would be one of the first topics I would prepare a study for to know how a basic NF-setup has to be set up best.
Thanks for all of your comments. I am a newby just trying to work out what’s what in the Neurofeedback world and have found it incredibly difficult to find information from someone who is not in some way connected to a neurofeedback software company. I am a clinician working in Australia where Neurofeedback is virtually unheard of. I recently did some training through what I thought was an educational program but later found out that the people running it are connected to a neurofeedback software company and were not very forthcoming with information about competing systems. With all that in mind… I’m after a real over view of where to start and what is needed.
So far as I understand, I need an amp (2, 4, 20 or 24 channel), software (compatible with the amp) and some form of sensors (headset, or individual sensors).
People have suggested I need access to a database also but other have said it’s unnecessary?
I haven’t heard of most of the brands discussed here but have heard good things about Brain master and their prices seem much better than anything I’ve found in competing brands (in Australia I have been quoted between $8.5k to $14k AUD just to get started with 2-4 amp device).
Someone suggested that I buy the 20 or 24 channel Discovery amp and use up to 4 channels to start with so that I already have a device that is capable of full cap work.
Apologies if anything i am asking is off topic or in the wrong forum. As I said I am very new to Neurofeedback.
Thanks I’m advance for any suggestions or information.
Hello Liam, I wondered if you had an further information since your post. I’m a complete newby to Neurofeedback by chance with a family member using it with great results. Was looking into buying a set up for home and possibly doing some courses, and have found a lot of info around NeurOptimal only, and although it sounds good, I’m not sure. The system my family member has rented is Bioexplorer (with U-Wiz) and they are putting the electrodes on themselves. If by chance you receive my message I’d be interested to hear more (by PM or on the forum). I’m in Australia also. Thanks
Hi Grace, that would be great. I don’t know how to private message on this forum but you can email me at LSHarkins@gmail.com
I’d be happy to trade any info that might be useful. From what I have heard of Neuro-optimal it is a one size fits all design with preset protocols. This might make it easier for home use but makes it limited in its clinical application or for individualised treatment protocols. At least that is my understanding, so I have steered away from it.
